Senecio microbasis

Narrow Fireweed at Downer, ACT

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Identification history

Senecio quadridentatus	5 Aug 2023	abread111
Senecio microbasis	19 Jun 2021	MichaelMulvaney
Senecio microbasis	30 Nov 2020	abread111

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16 comments

abread111 wrote:

20 Jun 2021

Thank you Michael for confirming this sighting from last year. However I notice it is said to be located in Downer, even though in the map it is in the correct location on Mt Majura and clearly not in Downer.
The other nearby species I identified at the same time are also now listed as at Downer.
Is there some glitch currently in the mapping?

AlisonMilton wrote:

20 Jun 2021

Hi abread111, There is a glitch in the mapping, but it is not from CNM. The glitch is with Google Maps. There are a lot of anomalies e.g. the botanic gardens will show up as in Hackett, parts of Aranda Nature reserve will show as in Holt and parts of the Pinnacle reserve (in Hawker) show as Dunlop.
I've looked at this further and the 'glitch' is that there are two fields for location. The Maps field is correct but the Places field, from Google Maps may not be correct. Since the latest rollout, we are now seeing the Places field when we hover over an image, when previously we were seeing the Maps field. Hopefully the team will fix this as it is confusing otherwise.

abread111 wrote:

21 Jun 2021

Thanks for the explanation...good luck to the team trying to resolve this issue

AlisonMilton wrote:

21 Jun 2021

Seems like they are not going to as displaying the map polygons creates too much maintenance work. A shame as sooo many sightings will seem inaccurate with the suburb listed often being many miles from the actual location.

AaronClausen wrote:

21 Jun 2021

Thanks Alison.

It's a tricky problem to solve for the maintenance service.

Polygons move and change over time, so do points of interest.

The maintenance service was having to constantly refresh millions of records basically whenever a polygon or point of interest changed.

Totally unsustainable:( but I know people enjoyed the feature.

We'll see if there might be ways to take a subtly different approach over time..

E.g. we could amend the hover text on the actual sighting page itself. But the sighting list pages around the place (e.g. latest sightings, featured sightings etc) won't be possible to achieve at this point in time..

Cheers

Aaron.

AlisonMilton wrote:

22 Jun 2021

Thanks Aaron, I understand the problem. Cheers

waltraud wrote:

22 Jun 2021

Aron et al
if the record had been located correctly on Mt Majura and landed on my desk as the moderator for Mt Majura, I would have advised Barb, who took the photo of the plant, to collect a sample. Senecio mircobasis is not included in the list of the Vascular Plants of the ACT; a sample would have been necessary to confirm the id by a specialist and to include it into the herbarium. It would be a significant sighting if the identification is correct; id by photo is a bit problematic particularly with a difficult genus like Senecio...
waltraud

abread111 wrote:

22 Jun 2021

Waltraud
I'll return to the site this spring and see if there are any progeny in the vicinity... Barb

waltraud wrote:

22 Jun 2021

That would be great Barb thanks.w

Tapirlord wrote:

4 Aug 2023

This is not Senecio microbasis; it will be either Senecio quadridentatus or Senecio campylocarpus, we cannot tell which. Having looked into this, S.microbasis is a plant of forested communities, not grassy woodlands, and has broader leaves which are most often toothed, but importantly are always purple on the underside. That is not true of this plant which has pale cottony hairs on the leaf underside.

abread111 wrote:

4 Aug 2023

VicFlora says "In Victoria grows in drier forest and woodland" for S. microbasis and Flora of Australia says something similar. I agree about the purple underside of the leaves being important but even there Flora of Australia says "lower surface generally purple".
So I just need to succeed in finding fresh samples to get to a botanist. So many Senecio species are quite similar and the key in Vic Flora needs a lot of different characteristics.

waltraud wrote:

4 Aug 2023

Ciaran, Im not sure about the ecological community. I think it is open forest perhaps open forest integrating grassy woodland. The cotton fireweed I know is much more hairy which gives it a silvery green appearance; however, different growing conditions may affect the hairyness (for instance growing at a protected site like the site of this record, may result in less hairs) and thus the colour of foliage. I seem to see a red-ish tinge of the peduncle (?, the flower stem) and the upper surface of leaves but I can't see the lower surface of leaves; the feature photo of S. mirobasis at Senecio microbasis doesn't show leaves unfortunately. Something else perhaps for further investigation.

Tapirlord wrote:

4 Aug 2023

Barbara: Yep, "drier forest & woodland" typically refers to dry sclerophyll woodland communities (E.dives, E.rossii & E.goniocalyx, E.nortonii, E.mannifera & E.macrorhyncha & E.polyanthemos, etc.). In Thompson's orginal paper he describes the habitat as similar to that of Senecio phellus (which in Canberra occurs on BM sandstone); hence I'm not sure there is appropriate habitat here. Regarding purple colouration, I would actually argue its diagnostic of Senecio microbasis, to quote Thompson's original description "Lower leaf surface purple" (Thompson, pp 75, 2004).

In terms of finding a specimen to collect, I don't know how much I think that will help. There are at least 5 species of Senecio native to Mt Majura, and I imagine several occur in this area. Given that we will not be able to find this exact plant, even if you did collect a specimen from this area that was Senecio microbasis we can't provide any additional detail to the ID than is here currently. We are in a similar situation to Juncus sarophorus (Broom Rush) .

Waltraud: I can't say I know MT Majura as well as you do; I was just going off the nearby sightings. I'm seeing Eryngium ovinum, Thysanotus tuberosus, Drosera gunnianum/hookeri. These species indicate grassy woodland or at the very least a transitionary ecosystem. It is not uncommon for senecio quadridentatus to appear "less cottony" late in the season (or after rain). This plant exhibits the appressed cottony hairs of Senecio quadridentatus and is clearly a bit worn. Given that Senecio quadridentatus (Cotton Fireweed) is nearby, the more I look the more I am certian this is Senecio quadridentatus.

Tapirlord wrote:

4 Aug 2023

Just so everybody is clear, the IDs on all three sightings currently listed as Senecio microbasis will be changing soon, unless a particuarly good arguement can be raised otherwise. I'm just holding off for now while we have discussion and to do some last minute checks with Thompson's descriptions.

Tapirlord wrote:

4 Aug 2023

Also Waltraud, the lower leaf surface is clearly visible in image 2. It is cottony white and not purple.

waltraud wrote:

4 Aug 2023

okay, now as you pointed out I see the cottony white... many thanks
w

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