after 18 hours on ABID this is the only reply so must think it is difficult as well, so looks like it will be staying like this. Thanks for your help and suggestion. Just a note when I did a "quick search" on Leaden/Satin Flycatcher it came back "This record no longer exists or has been deleted". It also did this on another search for another name. So this may need to be looked at, please. Below is the reply at ABID Braden Mcdonald I’d go with female Satin, undertail appears dark, colour on the wings is a lighter brown and the colour under the throat appears quite rich but I’m not 100% sure from these photos.